What IMBA is hearing from current Chapters.
http://www.imba.com/blog/2012-chapte...ess-priorities
Board Member
What IMBA is hearing from current Chapters.
http://www.imba.com/blog/2012-chapte...ess-priorities
A Value Oriented Cyclist
The Berminator
I have found answers to questions from last nights meeting regarding our current nonprofit status.
Q: If an individual/corporation donates money to FORC right now is that donation tax deductible?
A: No. FORC must have 501(c)3 tax exempt status and be listed on IRS Publication 78 for these donations to be claimed as exemptions when filing taxes. FORC must also file Form 990-N (or similar) with the IRS yearly to maintain its 501(c)3 status. [source: IRS Publication 78]
Q: How much can an individual deduct from their taxes by donating to FORC if it were a 501(c)3 organization?
A: Up to 50% of adjusted gross income for cash contributions and 30% for property donations. [source: Charitable Contribution Deductions]
If FORC were to seek 501(c)3 status on its own, Publication 557 is the IRS document explaining the process.
FORC'n Newbie
If my yearly dues go from $20 to $50, I may be inclined to ride the trails for free.
FORC'n Newbie
I'll buy my own socks.
Poser
Wondering if imaginary mathematics are taking over once again...Originally Posted by MonteSS10X
At $20, you've got a single FORC membership. At $50, you've got a *family* FORC and IMBA membership. Maybe a pair of socks.
Individual membership dues start at $30. This gives you a FORC membership and an IMBA membership.
At the end of the day, it is your hard earned coin and you'll spend it on what you want. Riding the trails for free definitely does not offend me in any way. I build trail so everyone else may be so lucky to have the opportunity to enjoy this wonderful sport. If you choose to help by paying yearly dues, that's the gravy.
'Preciate your input.
"ya, well...that's like...your...opinion. man."
FORC'n Newbie
I think it's worth $50 if it means awesome trails at Loud Thunder in a few years.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
FORC'n Newbie
So, I pay a $30 membership fee and FORC gets $12? How many couples out there who currently buy 2 individual memberships to FORC will now buy the $50 family plan? Looks like on these 2 hypothetical situations, FORC just lost $28.
Poser
That's a good question and the answer, as well as the scenario, are purely hypothetical.
The ONLY pure statistical data we have is what current clubs that have gone Chapter have experienced. That is, yes some current members quit those respective clubs but, those clubs have all, each and every one, realized a growth in membership.
"ya, well...that's like...your...opinion. man."
Supporting Member
I wouldn't say 'lost'. IMBA is doing great things at a higher level to help empower local clubs like ourselves. You may not see it helping us as a local club just yet, but when it's time to fight the good fight to make a truly epic trail system it's critical to have them in our corner. Okay, so we as a club don't get that $28, but that's peanuts compared to the thousands of dollars we're NOT getting right now from charitable donations because donations to FORC are NOT tax deductible.
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Administrator
FORC actually has received thousands of dollars in donations, as well as a $5,000 grant just this year. It has been said that a couple companies would have been willing to donate more if we were 501(c)(3), but regardless of the information that Drew posted earlier, I know FOR A FACT that at least two companies have claimed their donations to FORC on their taxes. What kind of actual "deduction" they received, I have no idea.
FORC'n Newbie
I'm for whatever is best for forc and the local trails. I love mountain biking, it changed my life. I will be a member either way. Just wanted to throw out a couple thoughts with those previous posts.
Administrator
We have discussed this in the meeting. Being an IMBA Chapter does not guarantee us access to any park in any way. In the Quad Cities, chances are it won't help too much either, except possibly being able to have an answer to some land manager's concern that the club isn't "mature" enough to maintain the trails long term. Certainly having the 501(c)(3) will help us in pursuing donations and grants to aide in the building of trails on land we do get access to in the future though.
Last edited by SweetSVT99; 12-05-2012 at 11:21 AM.
Supporting Member
Yes, I'm aware of the money we have received, but how many organizations might have done there homework before approaching FORC about donation and never did because we're not 501(c)(3)? Or, if we wanted to pursue donations from organizations, how many would decline because we are not? Unfortunately, as long as we're not an IMBA chapter we will never know those answers. Okay, having 501(c)(3) may not guarantee we get huge donations, but having it does give us more potential to do so. Listen, I'm not saying being an IMBA chapter is right or wrong for FORC since I no longer live in the area, I just wanted to illustrate that we need to get past the 'less returns in membership fees' topic to really see the big picture here.
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Administrator
Like I said, we've had some say that if we were 501, they would have given us more. I have not heard any one of the people who've pursued donations for our races and such say that someone specifically said they were not going to donate because we didn't have it though. Maybe they were the ones that we simply never heard back from, I guess we'll probably never know. The bottom line though, in my mind, is that 501 is not needed for FORC unless we are going to go after big money to build the Bike Park (or any other project) that has been discussed. For the record: Those that have expressed their interest in giving more if we were 501 were going from ~$500 to ~$1500, and while the generosity is MUCH appreciated, would have made or broken us about as the 60%/increased dues probably will.
I do think the membership fees should be part of the discussion, though maybe not the focal point of it. I think 60% of our dues, and the fact that our dues will increase, is something that everyone who intends to vote (hopefully all FORC'ers!) should be aware of. Hopefully all the facts, opinions, arguments for, arguments against, are all being soaked in by those that intend to vote. This is a big decision for FORC, and FORC Membership gets the unique opportunity to make the decision! Many clubs do not afford their membership the ability to actually vote to determine the direction they take!
I'm not arguing for or against it here either, I'm just throwing some facts out there as I know them. There are things I like about the Chapter program, and there are things I don't like.
FORC'n Newbie
SOrry I missed this months meeting, had a choice of ride or meeting, hehe, chose to ride.
That being said, I have been keeping up on all this and did make last months. Personally I say go for it, simply because what do we have to loose. Club officers are good with it, so club pays in, if its not for us, we leave....
IMBA wouldnt be what it is if there wasnt plenty of good that comes from it. Ok so membership dues go up a bit per year, but whats $50 a year really???? Just over $4 A MONTH!!! I accumulate that in change on the floor of my vehicles every month. Id have no problem personally paying that (or even a little more) and I can bet im on the lower end of the income lvls of club members. Ok so IMBA takes a % of dues, we all pay a little more, then clubs income stays the same give or take from dues.
As for the whole 501 status, being my experiences, that will make a difference in donations the club receives. Companies/people are going to donate more when they can right off the max allowed by the IRS. Gotta look at donations from a business perspective. Tax write-offs. Yes without 501 some is still able to be written off but smaller % is allowed as a deduction. The more that can be written off, the more they are going to donate as it means less income/profit that gets taxed. Thats at least how my friends wife that is an accountant explained it to me when I was doing the whole internet business thing.
Poser
I'm curious as well. I have to believe that they likely filed for the deduction, maybe even received it, but any audit would have those companies owing that deduction back. They may have gotten away with it, but it doesn't seem legit to me. Otherwise, why would 501(c)3 exist if the same deduction can be allowed without it?
In the past 2 meetings, a few main topics - both pro's and con's - have been discussed. I'd like to give my thoughts on the con's here...
"IMBA doesn't help, or care about, the little guys."
IMBA has reached the point where they have the resources available to lobby for our sport in Washington. We're seeing their work with such arduous and daunting tasks in working towards trail access being granted in National Parks - up until this year, mountain bikes were banned from all National Parks. This is no small feat. Out of those that ride off-road, who wouldn't want to contribute a small amount to help this cause? Getting more trail access is just one of the things that IMBA does for mountain bikers in the U.S. Those that say IMBA does nothing simply choose to ignore these efforts. You may not ever meet an IMBA representative but to believe that they do nothing to progress our sport is foolish and ignorant.
Please explain to me why IMBA's work behind the scenes and growing national influence means nothing to FORC.
"The club stands to lose $2000 in membership fees."
Other than the fact this figure is being thrown around as a scare tactic, the reality is yes, FORC will "forfeit" 60% of membership dues. Using SIMPLE MATHEMATICS, let's say FORC has 120 paying members (generous figure, BTW) at the individual cost of $20. That comes out to $2400 in dues collected. With Chapter, the individual dues will rise to $30. That comes out to $3600 but FORC gives 60% back to IMBA, which is $2160 while FORC retains $1440. At these figures, FORC "lost" $960. Currently, the club has somewhere between $8000 and $10000 in the bank and no one is really sure how to spend it. Is $960 worth the benefits the club will receive from IMBA - advocacy, national land access, membership management, 501(c)3 status, etc...?
Being more specific, our Vice President, Eric Perry, took the time to create a spreadsheet using current membership #s. You can view it here. I bring this up because in the December membership meeting, his numbers were called to attention and labeled as, excuse my French, bullsh@t. I believe the mistake was assuming the current 86 paid individual members would be split between the $30 individual and the $50 supporter and the Direct Costs to FORC weren't eliminated from net membership income. Using a worst-case scenario approach, assume FORC loses 10% of paid members due to the increase in membership dues and gains not a single membership through IMBA. At those membership numbers, FORC would "forfeit" $1066 to IMBA under the Chapter Program. I remind you, the Sylvan Island Stampede has generated north of $4k annually and, FORC plans on adding another race in 2013.
Please explain to me why you may think "losing" $1066 is not worth it.
"There's no more land to do anything with"
Completely and utterly false. Currently I'm in discussions with 2 different cities on the proposal of building a Bike Park facility for our *community.* There's plenty of land. However, it is very expensive so this is no easy task; it was never implied as such. But, steps are being taken and waters are being tested. Why would we not see what's available? The fact of the matter is - interest lies within our local government to progress recreational activities within our community, and FORC has the opportunity to be an integral part of it.
Please explain to me why this club would *not* want to explore and pursue this.
"I don't want this club to change what it's all about"
Nor do I, and I believe every single member doesn't want to see this club change. FORC is pretty friggin awesome the way it is right now, so why do anything different? I have absolutely zero doubt this club will cease putting on races, events, away rides, group rides, night rides, Moontower Parties, Winter Parties, Pool Parties, MTB 101's, or any other shenanigans we've done in the past simply because the club became an IMBA Chapter. I fail to see how pursuing donations for projects, fundraising for various events, or working towards land access would suddenly change any of this. Progressing our club, progressing our sport, and progressing our "facilities" should be at the top of our priority list. Chapter offers a stronger platform to operate from. In doing these things, I believe the thought is the club would be consumed with these efforts and I completely disagree. Everything this club has done up to this point, have those efforts taken away from any shenanigans? I see small committees being formed (3-5) people to focus their energy on fundraising or politicking with local officials for land access, etc. In what way would these efforts dissolve the ability to carry out any of the activities I described above?
Please explain to me how Chapter status would completely change FORC's identity.
So, those are the biggest arguments I've heard and I've addressed each of them as objectively as I know how.
Since I've spent a large amount of my free time researching this program, weeding through the legalese, figuring out the pro's and con's, tirelessly attempting to explain the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and ultimately reaching my personal conclusion - which is no mystery - I would like someone out there to convince me otherwise.
Convince me that Chapter is not the way FORC should go, and why. Take the time and put forth the effort to prove me wrong.
"ya, well...that's like...your...opinion. man."
These are identical to the conversations LAMBA had. The membership hit is actually pretty complicated to fathom/model all the possibilities but if approached correctly can be minimized. Some of your members are already IMBA members and you will get a cut of that now. If you can convince others to "donate" the extra they would normally pay over the amount of a basic IMBA membership directly to FORC then effectively the % is less than 60.
One extra 500 dollar donation from a business because you are 501c3 makes up a good chunk of your loss.
Having reserves is important but smart people will be able to full that gap in less than 2 years.
My 2 cents.
FORC'n Newbie
So FORC gets 40% of IMBA's dues? Sounds like a good deal. And my wife and I save money by getting a FORC membership for free when we pay our IMBA dues.
Donations as a 501c3 without spending a couple of years and thousands of dollars? Sounds cool.
More time for drinking riding and building by the peeps doing membership stuff- priceless.
I don't ever see FORC Losing its "club" feel. Its too much of who we are AND who we want to be. We''ve done amazin g things with almost zero dollars because every time we open a park, we get 20 local doods who join up to help.
As mountain biking has grown so have the expectations from land managers and mtbers. I think this allows those who have vision to have a better chance of developing that vision. If I can't see your vision, I''ll ride my bike and hope what you do works out.
Enough chit chat. Next meeting, call a vote. I vote go for it.
Believe in yourself? Well sure, of course. But be aware that "believing in myself" has been the root cause of most of my injuries.
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"I feel sorry for people who don't do this." -Badfish41- after bombing the Hermosa's at Levis Trow.
Supporting Member
Ditto. No-brainer win. Takes a lot o' admin headache off a club volunteer (managing memberships, unfun 'indoors stuff') -- more time to Have Fun, Drink Beer, Ride, Trails, Beer, Ride, Beer. And we all get to support a Great org, FORC, along with another Great org, IMBA. Not to diminish a dime, but it seems a great Value returned for a small cost of a few dues dollars lost each day ($2.63? - in beer money that's 1/3 of a craft sixer). That could be offset with membership mgmt time/effort no longer necessary and realigned to fund raising or donation solicitation. Money does not seem to be a FORC problem. If it ever does, raise cost of event entries by $2.50 or $5.00 or whatever makes sense -- people will still come.
That's my backseat $0.02 Oh and hell doesn't everyone know about the socks?!?!?
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