IMBA Chapter Program, is it right for FORC?

[ew_perry]

Thank you everyone! Since someone asked I am for us becoming a Chapter.

[dgw2jr]

Wow Mielke, I swear I could hear the national anthem starting to fade in near the end of your post! Now I'm all patriotic and vulnerable!

I'm going to Levis this weekend. I, too, wish I didn't have to drive several hours to ride something epic. I'm sure someday I won't even be able to afford to drive to these destinations (discretionary income going down, fuel prices going up) so to have a local ride center or epic would be worth a lot more to me than a 60/40 split.

I'm voting yes.

This thread needs a poll, the voting kind not the dancing kind.

[Bulette]

So for my understanding... 60/40 split applies to Membership dues only, correct? If so, then how significant 60/40 is depends entirely on how much of FORC's income is derived from memberships alone. If memberships constitute 50% or less, then the significance of 60/40 truly starts to diminish. Especially if FORC can keep membership dues low, while still encouraging alternative means of fundraising, (donation drives, merch sales, etc?).

I'm still staying open minded to both sides of discussion. But if 60/40 is the biggest hangup so far, it certainly needs fair examination. I've considered IMBA membership in the past, and would be proud to be a member, whether through FORC or otherwise.

[jimithng23]

60/40 split applies to Membership dues only, correct?

Yep. The Chapter club retains 100% of any and all donations outside of membership dues.

If memberships constitute 50% or less, then the significance of 60/40 truly starts to diminish.

Much less than 50%.

[ew_perry]

I have got a spreadsheet completed that shows if we had been IMBA Chapter this year we would have "lost" $113.75.
Actually even less because we sold some discounted memberships at the MWMBF.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=1&output=html

This discussion as expected is revolving around this 60/40 split. It is understandable because it is easy to comprehend and money is important. However it really is a non-issue.

[Chief Illiniwek]

McWrath makes a good point - If we're happy with where we're at, doing what we've always done, and content in where we're going, then Chapter isn't for us. Personally, I think we can do more and I believe Chapter is vital to where I'd like this club to go.

That said....I brought materials involving the application process for 501(c)3 to a Board meeting a while ago (we were still at River House) and I was told that it was too expensive and took too long to do. Now, we have the opportunity to acquire 501(c)3 for basically a $500 enrollment fee but we'd rather do it ourselves? I'm confused.

I fail to see how giving up a lowly $8 a member will compromise ANYTHING this club has done in the past or will do in the future.

It might help to look at the 60/40 from another standpoint -

Rider A pays $50 to IMBA in 2012 for a yearly membership. She chose to give $50 cuz she likes socks. So she gets some socks, a year's worth of Dirtrag, some stickers, and other miscellaneous stuff - including an email instantly welcoming her as a member of IMBA and spells out exactly what she'll be receiving in the mail. Rider A rides the local trails and wants to give back. So she chooses to join FORC at the individual rate of $20. Maybe, in a few weeks, depending on how busy the FORC VP is with his life that week (no offense, we all have lives to lead), she gets a neat card in the mail that thanks her for becoming a member. It's up to her to locate the FORC website, the Facebook page for updates, and peruse the forum for upcoming rides, events, etc. She has invested $70 into her local MTB community and feels great about herself and what she's become a part of, although she isn't exactly sure what she's a part of....yet.
***Total rider investment - $70.
***IMBA nets $50, FORC nets $20

Rider B pays $30 to IMBA in 2012 and chooses his closest local Chapter club (LAMBA, at this point). He doesn't get socks but he gets Dirtrag, stickers, and the regular stuff as well as some discount offers on LAMBA merch. Also instantly, he receives an email welcoming him to the MTB community. Within this email is a direct link to the main LAMBA page (which looks no different than it did prior to becoming Chapter) which is full of details for upcoming rides, events, and current philanthropic efforts. There's also a convenient "Like" button for Facebook right in the email. Simple. Easy. No-brainer, even. Rider B is stoked that his local club is active in fundraising and notices there's a ride this Thursday evening when he happens to have some free time. He has $30 invested, became a member of a national MTB organization ***AND*** his local MTB club. He's already posted in the forum and is stoked to join up with some local MTBers on the trail.
***Total rider investment - $30
***IMBA nets $18, FORC nets $12

IMBA actually loses MORE money than the local Chapter club when Rider B signs up.

From a rider/member standpoint, on the outside looking in, which would you rather do?

I understand a few FORC members belong to multiple clubs in the area...it looks like there will be no issue in joining those other clubs. If FORC hosts a TT and a LAMBA member shows up to participate, he/she will still be required to join FORC at the $20 Basic member rate. And, if those other clubs so happen to be Chapter, I'm certain they won't be worried about IMBA double dipping $8 of your membership fee to join their club because they're benefiting from the larger donations, land access, and new trails that the Chapter program has helped them acquire. If you don't want IMBA to double dip but you want to contribute and help out that other club, simply donate your $20. Pretty sure they'll accept your donation!

It appears as though we're gaining momentum for this program as some see the opportunities Chapter would present to this club.

Getting caught up in the 60/40 split, IMBA double dipping, and other administrative tasks like applying for 501(c)3 (which have all of the sudden became enviable) while this club sits on a huge cash surplus (which membership fees are a very small part of) and fumbles about trying to find ways in which to spend it, is highly petty and largely short sighted.

Do you not see the potential Chapter gives this club for land-access, trail building, and event organization?

Are you comfortable with what FORC has already accomplished and want nothing to do with achieving even more?

We need to continue growing and moving forward, not for us, but for future generations of mountain bikers. You may be happy with Sunderbruch, ScoCoPa, Sylvan, and Illiniwek now but what about in 10 years? Will you, me, US, be around doing the same things or will we make the difficult decisions now to lay the groundwork that allows the future generations to further grow and progress MTB as a sport and continue to be a vital part of the Quad City community?

This is SO MUCH LARGER than a 60/40 split....the fact that we are so caught up in this just befuddles me.

Frankly, I want to build world-class trails and I need the money, land, and resources to do it. Chapter would give me, my Trail Care Crew, and this club the opportunity to do just that.

Loud Thunder Forest Preserve has the acreage and terrain to become a world-class MTB facility, with the potential of becoming an IMBA Ride Center. Why wouldn't we want to pursue this? Having the legitimacy of Chapter, and the backing of IMBA, we would be able to make a much stronger case to Rock Island County. This could be huge, but......do we, as a club, want this? I'm sure you know my answer.....

Case Study::: 6 FORCers rode a trail 2 weeks ago that is nothing short of groundbreaking. Free Lunch in Grand Junction is the absolute FIRST trail of it's kind - a BLM approved true free-ride trail. After a long and arduous process spanning over 5 years, COPMOBA and the BLM finally reached an agreement to commence construction in the Tabeguahce Trail area, and the Lunch Loops Trail System specifically. This trail is groundbreaking from a political standpoint, from a local club/government standpoint, and most importantly a land-access standpoint. 5 years of fighting with bureaucrats, red-tape, and other BS? No thank you. Give me a strong platform to stand on (Chapter), with the support and resources of a national organization (IMBA), and the capability, dedication, and determination of a local volunteer MTB club (FORC) and I'll get us the land-access and funds to build world class facilities.

^^^THAT'S where I'm going with this.

A VISION.

Why sell ourselves short over a 60/40 split at $8 a member? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm tired of driving 10+ hours to ride world-class trails when we have the land to build on right here.

Once again, I'll ask the members of this club - are you satisfied with what FORC has done and continues to do or would you like to be part of something even bigger? The answer to that question should help you decide whether Chapter is right for us or not.

.....AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNND......... I'm done.

Damn, I don't have the time or the skills to say it any better than Mielke did! Thanks Mielke, I agree with everything you said! Again I vote YES!

JB

[DH001]

I imagine the auto membership renewal reminders will save those who take care of that aspect of the club considerable time and frustration once the information is in the system. It also sounds like any new members will be entering their own info into the database online when they sign up via the IMBA website? If Internet access is available at the venue then we could register new members.

How much is it going to cost for FORC to gain 501(c)3 status on its own? Less than $500? Am I correct in remembering someone say it was going to cost +$1000 and a bunch of effort to go it alone? I agree that we should pursue tax exempt status even if we do not agree on going chapter, but this is an easy route to get that status quickly and probably for less money.

Right now, what percentage of our operating income comes from membership fees and special events? 25% and 75% respectively?

I agree that 60% seems like a large chunk unless you work through the math (as Eric has done). It only applies to membership fees; not donations to the club or funds raised from our special events (our main source of income). Chapter also allows access to more funding through means we were not able to pursue without tax exempt status.

I recently read that IMBA plans to decrease the share they take once the chapter program is well established because they will be able to offer the services for less cost due to economies of scale. I would like to have this confirmed but even if it doesn't change the 60/40 issue should not be a deal breaker.

Another aspect of the chapter program is the potential for attracting new members. IMBA members will be alerted to the nearest chapter club(s) and be given the option of joining one. I don't expect this to cause a large influx of members but it will be another way to let people know we exist.

As a trail steward, I expect the chapter program to give us more credibility with land managers (LM). One big concern with LMs is how long an organization is going to be around to take care of the trails they build because LMs can't/don't want to deal with the maintenance. If we are affiliated with a large international organization it will show that we are committed to the long term. Building trails isn't cheap and even small projects can cost in excess of $1K. 501(c)3 status is also going to make it easier to ask and receive funding or material donations for future trail projects and we will get to keep more of the money because we won't be paying sales tax. It sounds like we will also have greater access to IMBA's professional trail building services which in itself is a large credibility builder. This alone should signal to LMs that we have the knowledge and resources to design and build sustainable trails. I realize that land access issues are not a huge issue at the moment, but there are a few areas with potential for more trail development where we may have to push a little harder to make progress.

[jimithng23]

^^^

[badfish41]

This discussion as expected is revolving around this 60/40 split. It is understandable because it is easy to comprehend and money is important. However it really is a non-issue.

^^This.^^ And I also believe the "belonging to more than one club/ double dipping", etc. is a non issue. If you want to be part of another club, donate your $20 or whatever and be a "member". I'm sure we can find a way to make this work.

I am also looking big picture here. I want the ability to be able to STRIKE when an opportunity presents itself, with some guidance and backing from IMBA. We have discussed some big plans and I feel as though if we want to make our trails not only sustainable but AMAZING, we need to move forward in this and apply. Who else wants a skills park 15 minutes from your front door?

THIS GUY.

I'm 100% behind this and undoubtedly voting yes.

[Vittetoe761]

I like the sound of this...especially Meilke's ideas for LT. Vote = yes for chapter.

[jimithng23]

How much is it going to cost for FORC to gain 501(c)3 status on its own? Less than $500? Am I correct in remembering someone say it was going to cost +$1000 and a bunch of effort to go it alone?

If I remember correctly from the last discussion we had concerning applying for 501(c)3 on our own, the application & legal fees were around $2000. It has been some time since that conversation so it is possible that I'm mistaken, but I remember it being very costly and incredibly time consuming which is why we ultimately decided to table the subject.

[Geek]

Ok so just made a paypal payment to join forc so to jump into this discussion. Ive been riding on your hard work for years. So the higher ups of forc say money isnt an issue, awdsome. Yet in other posts slme have said working again aT LT would cut maintenance too thin. How dlss this merger address this. Does A great organization behind you offer manpower to build the epic tdack?

[ew_perry]

Loud Thunder is a big dream, and one I also share. In this dream FORC and IMBA work to raise a LOT of money. Somewhere between $100K and $250K. The kind of money where land managers take notice and you do get primary access. The kind of money where someone else builds the trail and maintenance is almost a non issue.
This is just me speaking as member. Actually as much as I can remember I have never talked with Aaron about LT. So not sure what he is thinking. I also think LT give us something to talk about. However there could be land we don't even know about or exists yet for such a project.

My other dream is to have a bike/skills park. Anywhere from a $10,000 project to a $250,000 one. (Why not both!) This is something I have talked about with the club and also attended a handful of meetings and met with the designers of the new Bettendorf Park to share it.

[DH001]

Ok so just made a paypal payment to join forc so to jump into this discussion. Ive been riding on your hard work for years. So the higher ups of forc say money isnt an issue, awdsome. Yet in other posts slme have said working again aT LT would cut maintenance too thin. How dlss this merger address this. Does A great organization behind you offer manpower to build the epic tdack?

We have two options for building larger systems: do it ourselves or hire a professional to build it for us. 15 miles seems like a minimum for a large system so I would guess we would want at least that much trail. Professional trail runs $15-25k per mile depending on the terrain ($225K-375K for 15 mi of trail [no structures]). To build 15 miles of trail by hand would require at least 7000 hours worth of volunteer labor and many other resources. To put that into perspective, we started building trail at Illiniwek in late 2008 and have invested at least 1600 hours to get a 5 mile system (we incorporated quite a bit of the existing social trail out there into the system which saved us a lot of build time).

Currently we do not have the resources to tackle projects of this scale. We need to grow our membership base (and volunteer labor pool) and increase our revenues to make this type of project a possibility. 501(c)3 status is a must for large projects and I am sure we will need some guidance from those who have done it before. I think the IMBA Chapter program is a step in the right direction.

[ew_perry]

Email Exchange with an attorney friend of mine.

Can you give me a ballpark figure on what it would cost for the mountain bike club I belong to become(apply) a 501c3 organization? And maybe the time frame? We are based in Iowa with 120 members and about $8,000 in assets. Thanks!

We do them on an hourly rate. My hourly rate is $190 per hour. With costs to the state and/or federal documents and fees it could range from $2,000.00 and up.

[Dirt]

Just getting caught up here...My thoughts in random, nonsensical order:

I would greatly value hearing from members/officers of clubs who have Chaptered-Up. Did their membership increase or decrease? Did their workload increase or decrease? Do they consider it the best thing they've ever done or was it much adieu over nothing? I don't just want to hear from ICORR or LAMBA. I want to hear from several clubs, it it's possible, so I can get the sense that a club very much like ours (which neither ICORR nor LAMBA is, in my opinion) has benefited greatly.

How much are the dues going to be? They are $20 now. Are they going to $30 or $50? Be prepared for that ****storm...Granted, there will be a minority who will complain about the hike but they will certainly complain loudly.

Speaking of dues. I can tell you as former treasurer if we have a bad year for races (poor turnout, rain, etc) and we only collect dues at $20/clip at the average of 70 people or so, we're screwed for that year anyway. Getting 40% of that or whatever isn't going to make or break us. Additionally, we are in a pretty good position to endure a bad year or two so long as we don't go out wasting money. Besides how much do we really HAVE TO HAVE to operate for a year? If our membership declines, so will our insurance costs. It's not like we have to fund major programs or pay salaries or a building. If S hit the fan, we could move our stuff out of storage and we could even sell our assets. Basically, if we get to this point, it won't be b/c we joined with IMBA. It will be because we BOTH got screwed two years in a row AND made some really poor money management decisions. In summary - getting less for dues doesn't matter much if at all.

Does being an IMBA chapter impact our insurance rates?

As for TT's and joining multiple clubs, how cool would it be if created a "Conference" of local clubs who are also IMBA Chapters. Maybe members of those clubs (you get a card, right?) can ride a TT or attend an event of another conference club is hosting at a reduced rate. Obviously, needs to be some thought here, but I think it would be awesome if I could go to an ICORR TT, flash my IMBA-FORC membership and receive some privileges and vice versa.

I find it hard to believe that being an IMBA chapter is going change anything from day to day besides, maybe, the VP/Treasurer not maintaining the chapter list. I won't vote for it for that reason but maybe for others. As for chapter operations, it always has been and always will be 10% of the membership doing 90% of the work. That's not just our club - that's life in general - at work, at church...They key, then is GROWING the membership so there are more people in the 10%. I believe that's the only way MAJOR projects are going to get done.

Very, very, very important to me that we retain our website as is. Sounds like that's the deal. Just want to be sure.

Though Mielke's responses are about as bi-partisan as a political attack ad, I do agree that you must not think about what becoming a Chapter will do for us today but think about what it will do for us tomorrow (as in when our kids are joining the club and running it).

I appreciate those who brought this up and got the fire started. I also appreciate those trying to pee on the fire to see how strong it is. Good stuff - that's extremely important. Just be careful your pecker doesn't get burned. Once we decide - one way or another - no one is doing anyone any good if we have integral members throwing a ****fit over it. There is no wrong decision here. I hope all will agree to support the club over all in the end.

As I read through this entire post, I was all for it then all against it then all for it again...I still want to hear from other chapters for affirmation but I'm leaning towards the Democrats (or is the Republicans?). Whatever. I think we're on the right track.

[jimithng23]

No need to be bi-partisan and waffle back and forth on an issue that I firmly believe in. Call me a politician all you want.....I made my case as strong as I did, and will continue to do so, because that's how important I believe taking this next step is for our club.

IIRC, in the first year of the Chapter program 9 clubs jumped on board. The following year, the number jumped to 50. I'm not 100% certain on the current count of clubs that have gone Chapter.

Once the dust settles on this and FORC decides which way we're gonna go, I don't want to give the impression that I'm gonna take my ball and go home if we decide not to go Chapter. Like I said before, I'm just one person with one opinion. If FORC goes Chapter, awesome! If not, it's not like our club doesn't completely kick a$$ already, and have some kick a$$ trails!

But......think about the things that Cam, Brody, and Avery and everyone else's children will be able to do if we do this now. The sky's the limit........

[Dirt]

I doubt with all my being that IMBA is out to rip off local clubs or sucker them into sending them more money for no return. As with anything, however, we'll get out of it what we put in to it. After having time to reflect today, I would say I'm for it. I will still entertain the discerning opinion, but at this point I just don't see how the rewards and potential don't greatly outweigh the "risks."

In fact, I'm pretty excited about it. Onward & Upward.

[Russhole]

For sure IMBA is not out to BS or hurt local clubs. That would be the worst thing they could do.

At first I didn't see any real reason to do it. After all the discussion I don't see any reason not to. There are some big visions out there and if becoming chapter could help turn visions to reality then why not go for it.

I like the idea that signing up to IMBA you can also be a FORC member. I think this is better for folks with limited funds and time. How many FORC members are IMBA members? I don't even have a guess. The number of members any organization has matters. Going Chapter should help increase that number.

I also think this move would further legitimize FORC as a club.

I'm in.

[mcwrath]

I do not want to influence the decision one way or another, but if you are serious about wanting to hear opinions "against", then someone should make it a point to talk to Terry Carter from PAMBA. He is definitely against the idea, and has some strong opinions on the matter!

[Gunchie]

Okay, where is my mail in ballot? Be nice to not have to pay for both IMBA and FORC memberships. My local club who is IMBA affiliated doesn't do anything but walk around looking smug like the cool kids in high school, so I rather give the money FORC. They do some trail building, but the majority is done by Jefferson County employees... which I live in and pay taxes to so I'm putting money into the local trails anyway.

[Rage]

My local club who is IMBA affiliated doesn't do anything but walk around looking smug like the cool kids in high school, so I rather give the money FORC. They do some trail building, but the majority is done by Jefferson County employees... which I live in and pay taxes to so I'm putting money into the local trails anyway.

That sounds pretty short-sighted Gunch. I suspect they may have had something to do with the Jefferson County employees doing trail work, that doesn't happen all by itself. I'd do cartwheels if our local clubs could get more stable resources supporting our maintenance rather than purely relying on volunteer efforts - it would be crazy *not* to support them.

In my opinion, anyone who rides local trails should support their local clubs by being a member if nothing else. Especially those of us who are committed to the sport. Typical club memberships run less than half of what you'll pay for a single tire; it just tickles the nozzle whenever you fill your tank to drive to the next race; probably doesn't cover the beer tab after a single ride. Frankly, it's the best bargain you can find.

Rg.

[Gunchie]

That sounds pretty short-sighted Gunch. I suspect they may have had something to do with the Jefferson County employees doing trail work, that doesn't happen all by itself. I'd do cartwheels if our local clubs could get more stable resources supporting our maintenance rather than purely relying on volunteer efforts - it would be crazy *not* to support them.

In my opinion, anyone who rides local trails should support their local clubs by being a member if nothing else. Especially those of us who are committed to the sport. Typical club memberships run less than half of what you'll pay for a single tire; it just tickles the nozzle whenever you fill your tank to drive to the next race; probably doesn't cover the beer tab after a single ride. Frankly, it's the best bargain you can find.
Rg.

Actually, I've been a member of them for last three years, but if FORC was a choice for when I buy my IMBA membership I would do that instead. Between race entries, charity races, and volunteering I'm doing my part even if I'm not a member of the local club anyway. I probably am being short-sighted. I guess just have high expectations of what a bike club should be after being a FORC member for so long and was disappoint that my local club is far from.

[Rage]

The IMBA Chapter program seems like a logical next step for FORC to take. The last couple of years I've been lucky enough to ride some singletrack that was purpose built for mountain biking , and developed using power tools and resources that our outside of our current capacity (Brown County comes to mind, and just rode Elm Creek in the Twin cities this weekend). This was unheard of 10 years ago. There's clearly a positive new climate to trail development, and it has a lot to do with the ground work IMBA has been laying over the years. I'm not sure if we'll see similar development in our area as a Chapter, but I believe it's unlikely we'll see it otherwise.

I think the advantages of being a Chapter have been pretty clearly spelled out in earlier posts. One additional insight: as a board member of ICORR, I was part of getting through our 501(c)3 status. Took a lot of work. Guess what - this year's tax filing was much more involved than in the past; I'm concerned about burning people out who now will have to deal with that annually (we're still a small group of "do-ers"). Don't be fooled that there is only the up-front pain of getting that status. I'm interested in how that would be handled as a Chapter.

I'm concerned about managing membership costs. You'll see in many forums (and even in this thread) a lot of people questioning the need to join the local clubs. Raising membership fee to cover the IMBA requirement could deter some people from joining. I'm less concerned about the loss of funds than the loss of memberships. I wonder if we could work a deal to manage lower total cost and take less in order to address this? Good topic for Hansi. We spoke at the MWMBF about the multiple club concerns and IMBA is already working on how to manage that. I'm not sure if they have resolved it, but they get it and I believe they are committed to a solution that will work for all. Again, another good topic for Hansi.

If you're not growing, you're dying. I want this club to keep growing.

That is all,
Rg.

[jimithng23]

IMBA Trail Solutions. Believe it or not, a club not more than an hour and a half from us will be commissioning IMBA to design and build a trail system.

This would be something we could expect to do if Chapter was a program we wanted to embrace.